Debra has lived an incredibly full and inspiring life with no plan of stopping anytime soon. From moving to Europe, dropping out of school, marrying an Italian prince and hitchhiking across Africa all by the time she was sixteen, Debra has always embraced the unknown and said “yes” to all of what life has thrown at her. We speak about her love of integrating art and architecture, and the beauty of bringing something of ourselves to new experiences as opposed to requiring an experience to give something to us. We touch on the importance of embracing our individual uniqueness, the beauty of being a citizen within a community, and why elderhood is underrated.
I’m always amazed at what many people of her generation did when they were young (with zero internet and almost zero back-up plans). I particularly enjoyed her intent to use Art as a practical activity.
I also love the “do it now” mentality. You cannot imagine the long term results yet but you feel a good vibe and so you do it anyway. I think that we all need a good dose of this in our everyday life. Routine, conformism and predictability are just awful for our “inner development “.
That being said, I completely understand the younger generations who have a strong desire to “do the right thing” from the beginning.
When I was 10, the only sword of Damocles over my head was a global nuclear war. And it disappeared with the Fall of the Berlin Wall. In my 20’s, everything was cool (except for people in the Middle East I guess).
Back in the present, I cannot even imagine ALL the world-ending preoccupations that you can find in a young brain…
People who "stay put" aren't necessarily following the rules. I think we need to think carefully about the ways in which travelling and being on the road kinda gets glorified as being the ultimate way of exploring the limits of possibility and saying "yes" to life. There can also something very explorative and inquiring about *not* backpacking round Bali/doing van life/nomadic country-hopping etc - I think this gets lost sometimes, or seems to be painted as dull or conformist.
For example, I'm curiously interested in what happens when you try to build community with a random bunch of neighbours, or when you explore what kind of job situations are to be had in your city, or navigate the diverse ways of structuring an "ordinary" life. Working with what is there in front of you, rather than being on the hunt for the new, the exciting, the adventurous.
Sometimes I think these domestic pleasures (and challenges) can be even more rewarding than upping sticks and "going travelling", and I'd love for more people to be able to appreciate that.
Hey Zaz. I definitely don’t equate traveling with saying “yes” to life. Perhaps traveling is what some people’s “yes” looks like... but certainly not everyone’s, and I wouldn’t even say it’s mine. I’ve been traveling more this year than I have ever before in my life, and I don’t plan on continuing after this year, at least not at this rate. I’m also very interested in building community and putting down roots, arguably more than I’m interested in traveling. I actually think traveling incessantly can manifest as the opposite of saying yes - ie, as escapism. Same with relationships - non-monogamy can help to promote intimacy, but it’s also frequently used to avoid it.
All that to say, it’s personal, right? And not only is it personal, but it can shift back and forth throughout our lives. Adventure and exploration should be both inward AND outward.
Not sure if this podcast gave you the idea that I think traveling is the only way to explore the outer limits in life, but if so, thats definitely not how I feel! Being at home cooking a giant meal for my friends wearing nothing but an apron is truly (one of) my favorite places to be. ;-)
Thanks a lot for your kind and thoughtful reply - and super quick too! :)
I think there was something you said in your intro which made me want to comment. I guess I just wanted to make sure that "local" or "homely" exploring is seen as equally bold, risk-taking and adventurous as jetting off round the world (and also probably way more accessible to most people).
Ultimately, I guess every kind of travel - whether that be to a different continent or simply to the end of your street - is a personal journey within *and* outside of yourself. If we're engaging in something because we want to escape, we need to be asking ourselves what we want to escape from and how we can (sustainably) confront it.
P.s. Happy to hear you also take pleasure from home cooking! I love dishing up a big pot of soup onto the table and having friends dig in :)
She's very cool, and Tao is awesome too. Hey did you ever have Hunter Maats on your show? He's sort of gone low key his mixed mental arts podcast was great Brain Cullen was a little too OTT for me at times but hunter has some gems in his way of thinking which would be great to share.
Yes, I think it might've been on Chris's podcast. (yet) hahaha he's got some very mind expanding ideas much like Lindsey Lockett on filters from childhood exp over shadowing our lives. love that stuff!
What a lovely and inspiring lady !
I’m always amazed at what many people of her generation did when they were young (with zero internet and almost zero back-up plans). I particularly enjoyed her intent to use Art as a practical activity.
I also love the “do it now” mentality. You cannot imagine the long term results yet but you feel a good vibe and so you do it anyway. I think that we all need a good dose of this in our everyday life. Routine, conformism and predictability are just awful for our “inner development “.
That being said, I completely understand the younger generations who have a strong desire to “do the right thing” from the beginning.
When I was 10, the only sword of Damocles over my head was a global nuclear war. And it disappeared with the Fall of the Berlin Wall. In my 20’s, everything was cool (except for people in the Middle East I guess).
Back in the present, I cannot even imagine ALL the world-ending preoccupations that you can find in a young brain…
People who "stay put" aren't necessarily following the rules. I think we need to think carefully about the ways in which travelling and being on the road kinda gets glorified as being the ultimate way of exploring the limits of possibility and saying "yes" to life. There can also something very explorative and inquiring about *not* backpacking round Bali/doing van life/nomadic country-hopping etc - I think this gets lost sometimes, or seems to be painted as dull or conformist.
For example, I'm curiously interested in what happens when you try to build community with a random bunch of neighbours, or when you explore what kind of job situations are to be had in your city, or navigate the diverse ways of structuring an "ordinary" life. Working with what is there in front of you, rather than being on the hunt for the new, the exciting, the adventurous.
Sometimes I think these domestic pleasures (and challenges) can be even more rewarding than upping sticks and "going travelling", and I'd love for more people to be able to appreciate that.
Hey Zaz. I definitely don’t equate traveling with saying “yes” to life. Perhaps traveling is what some people’s “yes” looks like... but certainly not everyone’s, and I wouldn’t even say it’s mine. I’ve been traveling more this year than I have ever before in my life, and I don’t plan on continuing after this year, at least not at this rate. I’m also very interested in building community and putting down roots, arguably more than I’m interested in traveling. I actually think traveling incessantly can manifest as the opposite of saying yes - ie, as escapism. Same with relationships - non-monogamy can help to promote intimacy, but it’s also frequently used to avoid it.
All that to say, it’s personal, right? And not only is it personal, but it can shift back and forth throughout our lives. Adventure and exploration should be both inward AND outward.
Not sure if this podcast gave you the idea that I think traveling is the only way to explore the outer limits in life, but if so, thats definitely not how I feel! Being at home cooking a giant meal for my friends wearing nothing but an apron is truly (one of) my favorite places to be. ;-)
Thanks a lot for your kind and thoughtful reply - and super quick too! :)
I think there was something you said in your intro which made me want to comment. I guess I just wanted to make sure that "local" or "homely" exploring is seen as equally bold, risk-taking and adventurous as jetting off round the world (and also probably way more accessible to most people).
Ultimately, I guess every kind of travel - whether that be to a different continent or simply to the end of your street - is a personal journey within *and* outside of yourself. If we're engaging in something because we want to escape, we need to be asking ourselves what we want to escape from and how we can (sustainably) confront it.
P.s. Happy to hear you also take pleasure from home cooking! I love dishing up a big pot of soup onto the table and having friends dig in :)
She's very cool, and Tao is awesome too. Hey did you ever have Hunter Maats on your show? He's sort of gone low key his mixed mental arts podcast was great Brain Cullen was a little too OTT for me at times but hunter has some gems in his way of thinking which would be great to share.
I met Hunter once, but no, I haven't had him on the podcast (yet).
Yes, I think it might've been on Chris's podcast. (yet) hahaha he's got some very mind expanding ideas much like Lindsey Lockett on filters from childhood exp over shadowing our lives. love that stuff!